Does your organization understand its Why? Or more importantly, do your organization's People understand it? If your answer is yes, it's likely the employee experience ranks favorably among your workers, because they both comprehend their purpose and know how their efforts make an impact. Or so the discussion goes when co-hosts Brian Comerford and Nick Lozano explore the topic of "EX", an occasionally-overlooked but equally important counterpart to CX (Customer Experience). Because EX should be a strategic pillar, more than a corporate objectives checkbox, perhaps made more crucial in the post-pandemic workforce when prospective employees seemingly have so many flexible choices within their grasp. If leadership is defined in part by the amount of followership it commands, would you still choose to work at your company today if you were applying for a job - or would you even apply? Tune in to this episode to learn more.
Nick Lozano: How you doing today, Brian?
Brian Comerford: All right. Nick covered a lot of territory as we tend to do. And these these episodes.
Nick Lozano: Yeah, we did. We started with this article called the focus leader from the Harvard business review and touched on everything from EQ to A Q and a and different books.
And eventually we brought it all around to the employee experience.
Brian Comerford: Indeed and tied it up neatly with a little bow.
Nick Lozano: And it's a great topic that we had a day and it, the fact that we bounced all over the place, just let you know that employee experience is just not. Some checkbox, with a one through 10 that you send in a survey to employees and encompasses so much more stuff than just sending out a survey and saying, would you still work here if you were applying for a job or would you apply?
It's it's about being more proactive and being a bit more self aware.
Brian Comerford: And it really is the backbone of successful organizations and ultimately it's the key driver for positive client experience. So with that, I think we've got a enough preamble to set the stage for what this episode's all about.
Thanks for joining us for another edition of lead.Exe. I'm Brian Comerford in Denver, Colorado,
Nick Lozano: and I'm Nick Lozano in Washington.
Brian Comerford: And here we are in seasons mode. So thanks for joining us on this edition of what we are calling season three. And I know that's really what it is, but we're sticking to it.
Nick Lozano: That's what we decided to call it. So that's what it is. This is our first foray into seasons, so I don't even know what episode this is, but thanks for joining us.
Brian Comerford: Part of what this program was, the foundation that this program was really built on is leadership and technology.
And we've always said that we we kind of address those topics in broad strokes, but there's certainly two areas of passion for both Nick and I, and we felt like it was a good opportunity to bring that back home. There's a lot of dimensions that we can explore on that.
Nick Lozano: Yeah, I think it goes like you said, there, there's just a ton of stuff we can explore with that. And, we had been discussing before about returning to work and we touched about this a little bit and I don't remember what episode it was, but. We talked about this shift of how, like we're seeing people being vaccinated.
If anyone's not listening you now, it is June of 2021. So if you happen to be listening this sometime in the future we're coming out of the midst of a pandemic, at least here in the United States with, tons of people getting vaccinated. And we discussed about, the ability to work from home being a benefit.
And we touched on a little bit of the employee experience, and. We didn't really dive too deep into it. And you shared this article with me called the focus leader from the Harvard business review, which had a lot of good takeaways. And it, and one of them was, focusing on yourself and self awareness.
I think when we talk about employee experience, sometimes. We forget to, to think of ourselves as well, too, because we're part of that employee experience chain as a leader no matter what position you are, if you're leading people, you know that the focus you have on yourself tends to drive down to others.
So if you're in a bad mood and like not having a great time, people have a tendency to put that down on to other people. So we just figured it was a great topic for.
Brian Comerford: Yeah. And you know how this translates into employee experience tends to be this strategic pillar that with a number of the organizations I interact with it, it tends to be something that comes up time and again, and when it doesn't come up, it's almost glaringly evident that it seemed like an afterthought for them.
And part of what I mean by that is you can feel the difference in. And a company where employee experience has been put at the forefront, right? Where something like strategic growth and just growth for the sake of, that's the number one imperative that creates a different sort of employee experience.
People feel kind of drug under the bus with a lot of what they can be charged with when you're in an environment that's just all about. Hitting growth, performance metrics. And it's very little about what does the organization actually give back to. Their employees, who typically are on the front line of interacting with their clients as well.
Part of what I liked about this particular Harvard business review article is it breaks things into, these three separate categories, right? Where it talks about focusing on yourself. Focusing on others and also focusing on, the greater world around you and all three of those things have some pretty critical elements to them.
One thing that I know you and I have talked about a lot, Nick is when you define leadership. What is it? And there's a lot of these different things that come out. I always tend to fall back on Bob Lewis's definition and a, in a book that he wrote called leading it still the toughest job in the world.
And it's very simple. Leadership is defined by the amount of followership that you have. And part of what that means is that w when you have someone who's following you as a leader, That's an earned, some leaders have just a natural charisma. That surrounds them everywhere.
They go, they enter a room and you can feel the difference, and and you see how people are magnetized to that quality. And, they're willing to go along for the ride for others. It's not necessarily that same kind of natural tendency. But one thing that does not create followership is when you're in-authentic when you're contradictory and the things that you say when when you don't have a clear understanding of what goals and objectives are for your team or what the mission is for your department, all of those things that can create scatter and fragmentation and, make employees feel frustrated.
Nick Lozano: Yeah. And I think you touched on something that's a great topic. First talk about authenticity, right? And we hear this a lot, right? Be yourself, be authentic and, people will cling on to you and you tend you tend to hear it. And mostly in the social world or the marketing world, they're like, Hey, like we're just trying to make this really authentic so that people can latch on to see who you are. So I think people stop to think when they hear. They often think, at least I know initially to me it's okay what are they trying to sell me that I need to be authentic?
Like I think instead of using the word authenticity, it's like just show up and be yourself, be the same person and front of the people you're leading is the same person that somebody would run into in the street to the same person that somebody would run into in a community event. Just bring the one and only you, the same person you are.
When you're not at work. And people have a tendency to wait to tell when people are are faking it. Be honest, if you don't know how to do something, I can't tell you how many times I've said, I don't know. And that's a powerful thing to me, at least. It's okay to not know everything as a leader.
That's why you have a whole team of people. If you knew everything then like why would you have a team? And nobody knows everything. So I think that authenticity or just being yourself is really important. And that's why I'm glad you brought up.
Brian Comerford: Certainly whenever you hear the phrase, we need to make it authentic.
Chances are it's not going to be authentic.
Nick Lozano: Yeah, that's what I said. That's why I don't like the, the make it authentic or be authentic. It's no, just be. Be who you are all the time. And then to me, that just makes more sense instead of being authentic. Cause you're like that. And then you start thinking what is authentic? I like the way Simon Sinek talks or, I liked Jocko Willink or Bob Lewis or something like that.
That's great. You can draw from those individuals, but you are still your own individual person with your own individual ideas. And those come across when you just be yourself.
Brian Comerford: Sure your educators and your mentors, they should have influence on you. And, they tend to, even if they weren't the ones that you know, were your favorite instructors, but I think it's especially relevant when it comes to the world of technology and the various types of leaders that you find in technology.
In particular, we've seen the advent of a lot of folks who step into senior leadership roles, overseeing the technology division that kind of typically fall into one of two categories, they've either got a strong technical, acumen. And that background is part of what has propelled them over time to move up the ranks into a senior leadership role, or they have proven effectiveness as a business leader has also got some form of technical savy.
That has then positioned them into overseeing, what a technical division, might require from a leader. And I've seen both be successful and I've seen both be unsuccessful. And I think to your point, Nick being yourself and admitting when you don't know something, those are critical factors, right?
Because if you're a, if you're a business. And you come in to suddenly leading a technology practice. There's a lot of things you're not going to know. Someone might be tossing around terminology about LDAP and you're not really sure what that is. It's important to be to call time out. And. Make sure you say I'm just seeking to learn here. It's not that I need to, micromanage every little detail or understand every acronym, but I do want to have enough of a contextual understanding so that, if I need to weigh in or you're looking to me for some decision-making that I'm coming from a position where I feel, at least adequate informed.
I think the same is true for technical leaders I've seen many who have really wrestled with understanding how to do the inverse of what I just described. How do you take all of these acronyms? How do you take all of these engineering concepts that have a lot of complexity, but for those of us who have worked in the technical domain, We have a fluency in that.
And so we tend to be, talking at a pace about things that seem very esoteric to others who aren't dialed into that vocabulary. And some technical leaders can't seem to do the same thing themselves and being able to adapt to the language of. And so it makes it hard for them to then communicate in a way that can be understood to other business leaders, which can make them seem ineffective.
It's this guy is just wonky. He's just a, he belongs back in the server closet because he doesn't know how to speak to us. Again, I think, seeking. That type of mentorship where you can have someone from the business side of things who might be able to take you under their wing.
Because we've, we've heard it now for awhile. Technology is the business. In most cases, right? Data is the business in those cases. And so it's important that you've got that confluence of understanding and and certainly being vulnerable and willing to admit when you need some help or some coaching along the way.
I think that's a critical skill as a leader
Nick Lozano: yeah, I think it's super important, especially when we're talking about employee experience. And when we talk about this, we're just talking about. Someone's relationship normally with their direct supervisor and the organization in general, right?
Most people's interactions, their day-to-day job is one with their direct supervisor. And then the company as a whole. And I think Simon Sinek touches on a lot of great stuff that is needed. Like an employee experience. And one of his things is understanding your why, like, why does the organization exist?
And it's not about being, the number one producer of some AI in some market segment. That's a goal you're trying to achieve. That's not really like why you exist. Maybe you're an AI firm to, to make things easier on humans so that, you can do XYZ, right? That's a goal, that's a purpose.
And part of the employee experiences that people just want to know what they're doing when they come into the office to know that. You know what they're doing makes an impact. It doesn't have to be some worldly statement where when you know, you're doing the bill and Melinda gates thing and, or foundation or whatever, and trying to save all these people in Africa people just want to know what they're doing day in, day out, and that the little contributions that they make help to make the organization overall better.
And that's a great way as a leader is letting people know from an employee experience perspective. What they do and how it impacts the organization. And it's one of those things, like we always see. The studies come out and it's like millennials, millennials just want to know what they're doing, and that's a millennial trait, but that's an everybody trait, right?
Doesn't everybody want to know what they're doing or the reason why? Think back to world war two and it was all the allies coming together as a team to stop what was going on. There was a greater cause and people were willing to sacrifice because everybody believed in. What needed to happen.
So that's not necessarily a trait that's associated with millennials. In my opinion, it's just a trait that's associated with human beings. They want to know what they're doing matters
Brian Comerford: and it's important for leaders to set. And really to be able to frame the context of what the mission is, what's the mission.
How does your role support the mission? However your objectives potentially different from other members or other roles within the group or the department? So that people do understand, from a more of a. Holistic perspective, how do all those things strategically come together, and and really deliver results.
We hear a lot and, or have heard a lot, at least in more recent years about customer experience or client experience or CX, the criticality of that. And and I'm not here to diminish that in any way, but from an employee experience perspective, And if we take that same lens, how we tend to look at experience design for clients.
And we also transpose it onto people who are working at the desk level in our organization particularly for technology leaders. I think there's an opportunity to help shape the path towards delivering an optimal employee experience. Because we tend to have some of the power and authority behind the systems that are in place that can help drive efficiencies
that can help be integrated in a way where we've got easier data flow, which today is easier than ever before with, open architectures and APIs and being able to really build custom integrations for your specific workflow processes that then allow for more of a seamless interaction.
For those of us who are, saddled to to a seat and keyboard most of the day. You want those experiences to be frictionless for your employees, just as you want them to be frictionless for your clients, because then you've got happy employees. You got employees who don't show up to put their fingers on the keyboard or suddenly dragging.
It's I've got this archaic system that I'm saddled with, that I've got to, I've got all these work arounds just to do the basic things that I need to accomplish. So when you're able to help remove those obstacles, And that's part of what creates great employee experience that tends to translate to better customer interaction.
Right now. Now you've got more satisfied clients because the people that they have to interact with in your organization are happy about the things that they're doing, or at least not hindered by them. And sometimes that's part of what, being a technology leader requires in terms of shaping strategy.
Nick Lozano: Yeah, I think, you know you're, you're right too. And some of that goes back to the why too, right? If you know your company's mission and this organization is customer experience, and that you go the extra mile to make sure everything is perfect for the customer, you're more willing from a technology perspective to make things harder on your staff internally, because everyone knows that the mission.
Is to make the customer experience top-notch or, or white glove or something. So then everybody already knows what decisions need to be made when you come to those meetings and, product meeting or development meeting. And you're looking at, okay what items do we got to look at what you instantly not a prioritize because.
the, the goals of the organization are so that those are easy wins, right? Let's say, okay, customer fills out this form and then we manually go in and fill it out because right now the customer experience is the most important thing to us. So sometimes it is yeah. Embracing the suck for awhile and doing those soul sucking task but then fixing it on the back end and a process when it comes up later.
So sometimes, it's just not all rainbows, but when people are behind the mission and they understand it, they're easier sells as a leader and from an employee experience perspective, because they already know what's going to come. If you've communicated those clearly to them and frequently, it's not going to surprise anybody.
When they see that they're like, okay, here come these forms manually filled in. Okay. We already know we're going to get emails and we have to manually fill those out, but it's just one of those tasks. When they know the why, and they know the mission, it makes it easier for them to just pick up the slack and say, Hey guys, we got this for our customers or clients or whatever you happen to be doing.
Brian Comerford: Yeah. And, having empathy. So we are characterized a lot now as emotional intelligence, but one important characteristic of that is empathy. And having empathy for those who are actually saddled with having to embrace the suck.
It's easy to sit from your position of decision-making authority at your desk and not have to be hindered by any of those things, but to have enough empathy and sometimes empathy, isn't something that you can just discern independently. It requires interaction. And one more of those things that I like from that Harvard business review article on the focus leader is.
As you start to ascend up the ranks in an organization, typically that capability of having empathy, sharing empathy with others starts to get diminished simply because you're pulled into a very different capacity. A lot of it means that you're not necessarily going out and grabbing. With your associates, unless it's a deliberate action that you're undertaking, right?
And so you miss out on a lot of the chatter and also you get shielded from things where those who are now reporting to you, who may have been peers at a certain point. They're not necessarily disclosing details, with as much transparency as perhaps they would have if you'd been in a prior role.
I'm really, having an outward deliberate intent to interact and to gather information that's really required from a leadership perspective. It's relationships that happen up and down the chain of command at an organization. And you have to have a willingness to take the time to want to listen.
And sometimes that can come in a very informal context, surveys tend to gather some pretty good results, particularly if they're anonymized, because people tend to, be a keyboard Cowboys and, don't hold back. They know that, their identity isn't necessarily going to be associated with some of their comments, but however you can uncover some of the detail it's important to surface so that you can.
Bring that into your own context as a leader for both your empathy, as well as having a better understanding of where the challenges are, that need to be solved.
Nick Lozano: I think that's a great point, right? The higher up you move, the less connected you become to whatever your frontline status is for individuals.
I think it's important to have those conversations, right? Like you just said, whether it's in surveys hopefully we're having conversations before we get to surveys because you could get whisperings before ahead of time. In, in some of the organizations that you see that do this the best like for years and years was Zappos the late Tony Shay who lost what last year or something.
His whole thing was Zappos, before they were even owned by Amazon, before they were purchased, they made every single person no matter what you did at the organization, you had to work customer service and interact directly with the customers because they wanted to know everyone else in the organization didn't know what it was felt like to interact with the customer and what they were doing from a day-to-day basis.
And I feel like just stuff like that builds a huge amount of empathy and. When do you know that higher CEO comes down and talks to the lower level employee who might be a frontline worker? There can be a little bit empathy right there. Cause they understand from not an everyday perspective, but enough of a perspective of what they're dealing with.
Day-to-day and maybe it makes employees more. Open to sharing with them, because there's at least some type of a connection there. I feel like it's harder to connect with people when you don't have something in common. And we see this just naturally in human relationship. If you and I liked the same music and we're just sitting in a room and we find that out, we instantly connect and, and it's a way to. To pull something back together, just the same thing with work. If we both worked the, the frontline at some point, even if it's only for a couple of weeks, we have that instant shared experience.
And I think those are great ways to connect before you get to the surveys.
Brian Comerford: Sure.
And having an awareness also of what are the different personalities that you identify with a variety of associates in the workplace, right? This can be accomplished through a lot of different.
Methods, whether it's something like StrengthsFinder or a disc assessment or echo learning, all of these different methodologies that allow you to surface details about personality types. Part of why that becomes important is, regardless of what model you're using, A lot of those map personality types, somewhere on an extreme that borders the extroverted versus one that borders the introverted and similarly one that tends to move towards information or moves away from information.
Moving away from information being, another example of. Going with the status quo or operating from your comfort zone. There's a degree of demand that comes with being able to spend the time to really identify with how. Others might think or feel or respond to things that's different from you or different from other associates that are in your direct report line.
And so it, it can be helpful because now if you have to collaborate on a project, if you know something, really from a measured perspective around where those characteristics fall, then it can help you to be able to pair together. Kinda like what you're saying, two people in a room who just happened to share the same taste in music, maybe you don't necessarily want that on a project, but you want some kind of collaborative capability that tends toward agreement, but you may also want someone who is more visionary and someone else who's a little more detail oriented.
So that there's an opportunity for those two different types of extremes of characteristics to complement one another, you have you found that to be true with associates that you've interacted with or teams that you've been on?
Nick Lozano: Yeah, I think it's, it is sure. For me I get more value in personality test for seeing it for myself.
Right then, as opposed to somebody else's. Cause it's when you're talking to somebody like DiSC or some of the other ones that get really huge it's difficult to know offhand. Like what an I N D J is and what all that is and what the other things are. But it's easy to know what yours are.
And I think. Even, aside from personalities to talk back to, Peter Margaritas who we've had on our program a few times and he would adapt the improv. And it's like, when you're sitting down listening to somebody speak or you, are you listening to understand them or are you just listening?
To interject for your moment to respond. And I think a lot of it is just being self-aware. We go back to right. And understanding that, everybody else has thoughts and ideas and we need to let them express them and they could be different than yours doesn't mean that they're wrong. It's just different.
And understanding that different personalities, like some people are more analytical. And silence to them just means that they're calculating what was just said to them. It's not anything negative. They just need a minute to process everything that was said. And I think spending that time, like you said, on strength finders or DiSC or her Egnam or the big five or.
Or whatever you decide to do can go a long way. Just if you at least just spend the time to understand yourself and understand that the personality traits that you, you have yourself, are you more analytic? Are you more introverted? Are you the type of person who will walk into a room and just start hanging out saying hi to everybody?
Are you the type of person who sits back in the corner and just knowing those things with your personality, then you can kind of help drive some of your own conversations or, work on some things that you're not as good at, or, focus on the pros, the things you are good at. I think another thing we focus on too much is focusing on strengthening our weaknesses.
We have strengths too. We can't forget about those. We still gotta work on those skills. If we want them to be good, it's just let's say a pitcher in baseball. Throws a fastball perfectly and then just stops doing it eventually at some point he's not any good at that anymore.
So why take it away from him? And that's my 2 cents on that.
Brian Comerford: Absolutely. There's a reason that it's a common phrase, right? Play to your strengths. And to that point, that's part of why I liked that StrengthsFinder assessment, because it helps to identify some of those areas that are unique to you.
That are your top strengths, so that rather than you necessarily spending a lot of time trying to seek out development to strengthen those areas that are weaknesses, right? Instead you play to your strengths and you look for other areas that are opportunities to compliment with others that help to balance out or round out.
Where you might not have the strengths that are necessary to complete something or, to really fulfill some of your leadership objectives. And again, going back to that Harvard business review article, there, there are a couple of areas that I think are called out that are also important related to just exploring the wider world.
And, a lot of organizations are sales-based. And sales based organizations tend to have a lot of one type of personality that falls into their sales group. And it's it tends somewhere between the influencer and the dominant using a disc assessment as a reference point for it.
But you often hear, the term, the alphas, people are out there who are really they love the attention of interacting with others. They love to build relationships. They thrive on time that they're spending with other people and they really start to feel diminished when that's taken away from them.
So the pandemic has been, I think, rough for some of those types because they're missing out on their mojo. They need to be in those social settings where, you know, they can just gap and, that's where they draw their energy from. But conversely there's, there are more introverted types and it's the opposite for them.
They tend to feel one down pretty quickly. If they have to fake their way through being interested in a lot of social settings or, big corporate events or, those types of things that it takes energy from them. It doesn't help them regain their energy. And so part of what I think is interesting in that Harvard article on the focus leader is it talks about the exploitative and the explorative nature, right?
That there's this dichotomy that's at work. And that, that dichotomy is actually in all of. And we do actually need fulfillment to a certain degree, flexing back and forth. Whether you call it, extroverted versus introverted exploitative versus explorative, there does need to be time where you dial back your level of interaction with others so that you can be more reflective and you can take in information in a different.
Where you have control over the pace in which you're receiving it. And then you can sit on it for awhile and allow it to, gestate or, ferment. So then some of those new ideas can bubble to the surface.
Nick Lozano: I like that you said that cause a lot of it's what just emotional intelligence and.
Being aware of what's going on, looking at a conversation that's happening. And I'm seeing if you can pick up on things that are going on. And I think a lot of it is if you just keep the communication open, everyone always says I have this open door policy, which is great, but some people are introverted
even if there's an issue might not reach out to you if there's a problem. So as a leader, you should probably still be a little bit of proactive, just checking in on people. I'm big on just having regular conversations, with people just what was your weekend like? But like what hobbies do you have?
What interests you outside of work? To open up a little bit so that. Can understand both of you as people, right? Because if I'm a senior VP of something, talking to an associate, there might be that nervousness, from the associate level person or a frontline worker that they're talking to a VP who's, eight bosses up.
But if you just have a conversation with them, like your people they know if we just walked up on the street and we just happened to work at the same place. And try to develop. Relationship and understand them from a personal level. I think helps a lot with that tune. We're getting right back to, the emotional intelligence side of everything.
And it seems to be super important when it comes to, that employee experience.
Brian Comerford: I think so it's a really, not only being able to have that command of self-awareness, but being able to have a clear understanding of where these other forms of awareness may need to come into play. So again the three key areas that get called out and the focus leader being awareness of oneself awareness of others, awareness of.
The wider world and being able to flex between those things, and having an understanding, where one may need more attention than the other and and taking it upon yourself to really dedicate yourself. To having a willful ability to pivot into those areas as a situations demand.
So I know we like to, reference a piece of media every time that that we do one of these episodes, we've been talking a lot about the focus leader and this edition of Harvard business review. What else surfaces to mind for you that aligns with some of this.
Nick Lozano: Yeah. So I would say for me, when I think of this and really I'm going to go to, to it's probably a really weird book right. For this, but there's this book called Musashi. And I don't know if you're familiar with Musashi did it's supposed to be like Japan's greatest samurai ever. And they transcribed like nine books from Japanese to English and it's in one book.
Like 1500 page book called Musashi. And he also has books called the book of five rings and stuff like this. But what is really interesting to read it and it's historical fiction, right? Obviously he was a real person, but they don't, they filled in the blanks and made a story out of it.
And. And they follow him as his journey from this lowly teenager to some type of Ronin, which is masterless samurai to be in one of the most feared samurai ever. And it follows his personal journey of how he goes from everything being centered around him, to seeing things outside of him. To then coming back inside again at the end and bring it together as a whole.
I don't want to give away too much because it's a long book, but it's an epic story has an epic ending. But I think, for me, when I always think of, emotional intelligence or situational awareness or self-awareness E Q whatever you want to call it I always think back to this.
Brian Comerford: No. That's great. Yeah. Miyamoto Musashi isn't it.
Nick Lozano: Yep. Yep. You got it.
Brian Comerford: Yeah, I would. And I would and I love that, the book of five rings and know like the art of war. I think it's one of those things where. It takes a little bit of time to get through it. Before you start to understand there's a leap between ideas that you have to make.
That's different for the Western mind. We're not always necessarily equipped to make those, Eastern philosophical leaps between ideas that you know, are so prevalent with some of the Eastern philosophers. But once you get into that groove, I think there's just a lot of fantastic and those I'll fall back on our old friend, Bob Lewis.
So he had another book called the 21st century manifesto, which is just, it's a great guide book for mindset related to just about any challenge that you might face as a leader in technology. And it's just a fun read anyway, it's he. Uses deliberately uses, more simplified language again in part, because I think he recognizes leadership in a technical domain more and more is, requiring people who may not have come up through a traditional it background, but they still have a need to understand.
Everything that's within a technical domain that falls on the shoulders of leaders. That's one that's worth reading that touches on a lot of these topics we've discussed today.
Nick Lozano: I know that some of the Eastern culture books are a bit different, difficult for Westerners because they can be very philosophical, right.
I just want to share, my favorite line from that Musashi book it's like, there is nothing outside yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, smarter, everything with is within everything exists, seek nothing outside of yourself.
Brian Comerford: Spoken like a true Ronin Janitor right there.
I love it.
With that, I think we've, we've attacked a lot of angles on that on that topic. That's I hope we're beneficial to our leadership listenership.
Nick Lozano: Yeah. Then we'll just close that. Thanks for listening everybody. Thanks, Nick.