In this episode Brian Comerford and Nick Lozano discuss the idea of remote working, and managing remote teams. As talent gets hard to find, offering the ability for your employees to remote work can make your offer stand out. Listen as Brian and Nick discuss the leadership principals needed to make remote teams successful!

0:08  Opening
2:02 Episode Intro
2:15  Remote Workforce
4:11 Technology Needed
8:42 Productivity
14:31 Culture
17:09 Leadership Capital
22:00 Uncomfortable Conversations
27:47 Communication
33:20 Books
37:37 Closing

BooksMentioned:
https://basecamp.com/books/remote
https://echelonfront.com/dichotomy-of-leadership/

Hosted By:

Brian Comerford
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briancomerford/

Nick Lozano
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-lozano-97356621/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/NickLLozano

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Show Transcript:

Nick Lozano  0:08
So Brian, Today on our lead, we have another great topic that a lot of people are probably talking about today, you know, remote working.

Brian Comerford  0:19
It's all about how you effectively lead wherever you're at. that's ultimately what it comes down to.

Nick Lozano  0:26
I feel like that's correct answer. You know, we we dive into a lot of topics and you would think that you know, us being technology guys, we're going to talk about virtual desktops and VPN, office 365 SharePoint, but we didn't talk about any of that really, we kind of talked about some of it in the beginning, but, you know, like you said, most of this is just core leadership, you know, topics and ideas that leaders just need to know and, and do in general.

Brian Comerford  0:58
And there's a variety of reasons why You should embrace remote work policy. It's it's not just about creating work life balance. It's about how do you manage a growing organization where you've got disparate teams? How do you leverage great talent from wherever they are, and make them a part of your team? Even if you can be in the same g of physical space? How do you interact with other teams that might be on boarded neither long or short term who are offshore operations to wherever you're located? So all of those things factor into it? Bottom line is principles of leadership are the same. you communicate clearly what your expectations are, you set deadlines, you manage to accountability you lead by example, and you maintain consistency with everyone who's on the team, whether they're sitting five feet away from you, or on the other side of the planet.

Nick Lozano  1:54
I don't think I could said that any better Brian, I guess with with that golden nugget. You just gave There, we're just gonna go ahead and let people listen the show.

Brian Comerford  2:02
All right way we go. Welcome to another edition of lead Donnie FCM Brian Comerford in Denver, Colorado.

Nick Lozano  2:12
And I'm Nick Lozano in Washington DC.

Brian Comerford  2:15
And today, we're going to chit chat about remote workforce. It's a topic that seems to stir deep emotions and a lot of different people for a variety of reasons. But I think there's some clear intersection points with leadership traits that we can bake into the conversation. I don't know what do you think?

Nick Lozano  2:41
No, I think it's a big topic. It's seeming like you know, competing for talent. salary is not the top factor anymore, right. It's that work life balance, and being able to remote work, you know, people want to be able to live in cheaper locations, right other than New York City or San Francisco. But still benefit and get some of the, you know, salary perks you know, even though they might pay less because you're fully remote, you still might make more than if you, you know, lived in Omaha, right? And you worked out in New York City, they'll pay you less, you know, it's kind of a win win, right? They'll pay you less and you'll make more money than if you works in downtown Omar probably. You know, just disclaimer, I've never been to Omaha and all the sellers are like there. I'm just using it as, you know, an example that because Omaha's pretty far away from New York City, and we know the salaries are, are pretty exorbitant there because the cost of living this is ridiculously out of control. And as you can imagine, but you know, we've seen this over the years that remote work is just trying to be one of those things that leaders are trying to figure out how how do we give, you know this benefit to people to allow them to remote work so that we can compete on more than just salary?

Brian Comerford  3:56
Well, I've heard tell from folks like Warren Buffett that really State appreciation still pretty solid in Omaha?

Nick Lozano  4:05
I don't know why that popped in my head, but you know, just just pick a middle of the country.

Brian Comerford  4:11
That's all good. Yeah, you know, I think it's, it's not just about the work life balance, I think another challenge that we've run into in some of the markets that I've had to recruit in, you don't always find the best talent in certain markets. And if you can offer remote work access, you might actually get better talent, it might not actually even be about paying someone a geographic differential. You might actually end up paying someone more who's a remote worker, because they actually have the type of talent that is needed for a specific capability in a specific site where you Just topping out on trying to find the right talent to be able to hire into that role. So, to me, it gives flexibility to both the employer as well as the employee. And as we've really seen technology continue to advance with the secure access capabilities. I have, you know, equal confidence whether someone's physically sitting at a desk inside the walls of the organization where my network is running, versus sitting at home on their Wi Fi, using VPN, or, you know, some other kind of remote access capability.

Nick Lozano  5:40
Yeah, now VPN, what's that? No, I agree with you. There was a time where remote work was difficult, right? We had to have the VPN so that means we had to have the throughput we had to have the high enough, you know, internet circuits that can deal with the traffic and the traffic out at the same time and now with things like Amazon workspaces, Microsoft even, I think recently released an Azure workspace virtual desktop infrastructure. It's getting very cost effective for even smaller organizations with probably as few as 10 people to be able to have this complete the, you know, desktop infrastructure, you know, like your HP or your IBM or or, you know, some big old enterprise iron grade thing you don't need to have, you know, an IT staff, you know, with 100 million dollar budget to be able to put together this architecture, infrastructure where people can work remotely and you don't have to worry about anything or what computer they're on. And even with the rise of, you know, just online tools in general, right, like we don't install CRM anymore. For the most part, you know, people are using Salesforce or Microsoft Dynamics or for whatever Insightly, whatever name there's there's dozens of them. More accounting systems again, it can't think the last time I've looked at any piece of software and go It'd be great if I had an on prem off.

Brian Comerford  7:05
What I need is a thick client to install on a local hard drive.

Nick Lozano  7:09
exactly does it have you know, a Microsoft sequel server license, that's impossible to figure out the licensing scheme for? I would like that. So I think just as you know, you know, the consumer ization as we've talked about before, of technology, has driven these changes fast, where people are coming in, they're expecting their enterprise grade equipment to work the same way it does at home, which has been a burden for us. But it's also been a boon, right? With all these players coming in building all these technologies to to a concert from a consumers perspective, which has all these things where, you know, you and I and before would yell at these big players to fix something and they would never do it. They're like, no, that's fine. They'll buy this because it's, you know, this is what we have, this is the only choice they have. But so yeah. Side rant again, as I always do, but like I was saying, you know, technology has kind of allowed it, you know, organizations of all levels to kind of dip into explore this remote player market. And like you said, it's it's the ability to find the talent that you couldn't find before. Before in Rockford, Illinois, which isn't very far from Chicago, but it's not a huge city. You know, if we need an AWS certified informatic in, you know, architecture engineer, you know, as a cert certificate that we can just find somebody remotely who does that they don't have to necessarily be there. For all we know, they could be in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Brian Comerford  8:42
Well, I can tell you that in my years where I was just really focused on programming, I was the beneficiary of being able to work remote In fact, working halfway around the world during a time that I was having to care for some my enemy Laws when, you know things were not going well for their health. So, you know, there's, there's also the advantage to providing enough flexibility that you can actually retain an employee, when there's the possibility that you might have to lose them otherwise, because if it comes down to something like family versus job, you might put someone in a very difficult position if they don't have an option, like a remote work policy. And I guess that's another question that comes, you know, to mind for me is, you know, at what point do we really start to lack the trust in our workforce, that things are going to get done? I mean, from a leadership perspective, you know, my, my philosophy has always been, I don't really care what time people are coming into work or what time they're leaving or what kind of personal appointments They keep, as long as they're showing up for the things that they've committed to show up for. And as long as they're delivering on the things that I need them to deliver on, and they've committed to, and then hold them accountable. To me, those are just basic leadership traits. So because to be completely honest, I'm not convinced that I'm going to have any better insight. If I've got someone sitting 10 feet away from me in a cube, that they're actually not on social media, versus if they're on a webinar or, you know, in a Skype meeting, and, you know, they're busy folding laundry Well, well, you know, they're, they're talking business. So, you know, I think it's interesting, because you had pointed out kind of what prompted our whole conversation today is he had pointed out the social media post that was pretty inflammatory about the idea that remote work was some kind of harebrained millennial concoction To allow them to be able to stay home and surf the web and peruse their social media outlets.

Nick Lozano  11:08
Well, let's just get one thing straight. You don't need to have a work computer to produce social media. Everybody has a phone in their pocket nowadays, you can PR Is it on? on some network that's not managed by some corporate employer? And, and I think you bring up a good point, it brings us back to the leadership component, right or not, whether someone's remote or with you, we're still talking about leadership, right? You're spending your leadership capital, capital, right? If I spent all my leadership capital on making sure that you're not on social media, I'm burning all the capital might have on something that's really not important. I'm in for me, if you spend 10 minutes on social media, who cares? I don't care. Right. As long as you go back and you say, you know, people are delivering when they say they're going to deliver they're doing what they say they're going to do when they say they're going to do it. I don't see where this issue is of letting people get on social media or Letting them check the sport score. You know, at least for me, sometimes when I'm in development mode, sometimes I need stuff like that step away and stop and think like I need to shut my brain off and look at something that has nothing to do with whatever I'm thinking about. I don't know if you're the kind of the same way, Brian, but when I get some complicated and I'm stuck, I need to completely step away from everything. And you know, it might be a mind numbing thing, just scrolling through my LinkedIn feed or, or my Instagram feed, and letting my brain reset and clear and walk away. It doesn't mean that people aren't working or they're not thinking you can't possibly expect your people to 100% work on work 100% of the time when they're on the clock. I mean, that's just me and now you know, you're chasing something that's never ever going to happen and you're burning your your leadership capital on something that just doesn't even matter in the end. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Brian Comerford  12:56
Well, I mean, I think you framed it, you know, because the Fact is in, in days where, you know, my father's era of being in the workforce, that is to say pre computer, right pre pre mobile phone. I'm not convinced that more work was getting done. In fact, he came from an era of three Martini lunches. So let's consider having to consider how much of the work take got tossed out, you know, once lunch was finished. But, you know, again, to me, it's, you know, everything that we're talking about. Those are the leadership characteristics that I think are the most critical, and I think you bring up the point about how do you best utilize your leadership capital. I think it comes from setting the example that you want in the workplace, being very consistent in your own behavior and accordance with what you say you want to have done and setting clear policies, deadlines, expectations, all of those things and holding people accountable. It's it's really a pretty basic formula. And if you do that, and you do that with everybody and you do it in the same way, and others in your workforce, see that that's how you lead, then this entire argument goes out the window as far as I'm concerned. I mean, if if the worry is really about productivity, then it's an empty fallacy as far as I'm concerned.

Nick Lozano  14:31
Now, Bravo, Brian Bravo.

Everything you said applies directly to if your workplace workforces completely in front of you, right. We're not doing anything completely different. Like granted. One people are remote, you're probably checking in more be you know, checking in saying, hey guys doing okay, you know, maybe we're having zoom meetings or Skype business meetings or whatever video conference system you want to use. But that doesn't necessarily doesn't mean that you know, people are Not being productive. Like I said, Look at those companies before they have been 100% remote like buffer as well, which is a social media tool that you know people use to schedule their postings digital marketing tool, but you know, they they've been 100% remote from the beginning too. So we're definitely seeing the successful thing of, you know, people being 100% remote and like you said, back in the day before computers, there was a chance for people to waste time. People will always find a way to waste time. They don't need a computer to do that. Oh, absolutely.

Brian Comerford  15:29
And the fact is, I mean, either you're cultivating a culture that embraces all those characteristics around, you know, hey, I've got expectations that are placed on me, these are the things that I'm expected to deliver, here's how I'm expected to deliver it. And you've got the kind of interaction where, whether you call it a performance management culture or not, conversations are taking place so that there's there's no gray area for people. They know that these are what the expectations are. What your intent is as a leader. So, you know, whether you have a device, or you have an internet connection, or you, you know, work on computers at a desk or you don't, I mean, to me, it's, you know, it's the same in every situation. You know, in that kind of context, leadership is leadership. And you've got it in place where you don't, and if, if you're coming from a place that you're going to post something online for all the world to see and actually have the confidence to attach your name to a comment that you shared with me.

Nick Lozano  16:40
And it's a LinkedIn so like, it's legit mail your name. Right,

Brian Comerford  16:44
right. Then, you know, that, to me is is one of those things that really begs to question number one, have you ever been in a leadership role because it sounds like you don't understand some fundamentals around leadership. Number two, if you are in a leadership role, You may need to change your title because it's like, you're not living up to some of the responsibilities that have been handed to you.

Nick Lozano  17:09
Right? There's, there's a balance here, right? I'm going to go back to leadership capital thing, right? If I'm yelling and screaming at you all the time to not waste your time on your phone, I'm burning my matches for things that just don't even matter. Right? I mean, to me, just, it just doesn't even matter if I'm yelling and screaming all the time that you're wasting your time on social media. And I'm like, hey, Brian, by the way, you got that report? You're gonna be like, screw that guy, man. He's just like, just always heal me about something about being on my phone when I'm not actually on my phone all the time. We're wasting our capital on not building a following. It goes back to always what I say with you, Brian is you know, as believers, we should always be standing with our hand out willing to help people. You know, we trust that they're going to do the work but we also go back and we verify, right we trust but we verify and We don't get micromanager unless someone gives us a reason to micromanage them. And that's the way I always think about it. You know, if we have somebody who constantly shows up late if we don't have the conversations early, when they're five minutes late a couple times, and then they start coming in 20 minutes late, and then 30 minutes late than an hour late, and then they just don't show up. Well, the onus is kind of us on as a leader to have those tough conversations be before they come even harder. Right? people have a tendency to shy away from tough conversations and not have them when they should have them earlier. When they're easier. They do nothing but become harder. Right. But I think the point that I'm trying to make here is that you know, with even with remote workers and and people that you have with you, you always trust but you verify you have to let them have some kind of leeway, some self autonomy where they can do stuff and some of that goes back to you know, we've given clear direction, right? Maybe they're wasting time because We didn't tell them what, what our objective is here. Well, they're waiting for somebody to tell them to do something because you've micromanage them and always told them what to do. So they're like, Oh, well, you know, Brian hasn't told me what to do today. So I'm just going to hang out on my phone until he tells me what to do because he always tells me what to do. So when you're in a situations where you feel like people are wasting time, maybe that's when you need to step back, take a look at yourself and see how you're leading your team. Because if your team standing around waiting for you to tell them to do something, you're probably micromanaging them and you don't realize it.

Brian Comerford  19:33
Oh, amen to that. And, you know, you touched on a couple of things that I think are important to emphasize the the first, you know, I come from a scrum background. You know, as a scrum master. I'm accustomed to having these quick stand ups and that, you know, can become part of your culture, even if you're not a software development shop, where you just quickly gather your team or you know, members of your department and You know, typically if it happens, and it's the first thing that kicks off your day, and it's always at the same time every day, then it helps create those expectations. So this is part of the routine. And what happens in that context? Well, we go around the room and and we got, you know, our Scrum Master is going to guide us through three simple questions. It's what did you work on yesterday? What are you working on today? What kind of obstacles have you encountered? And ultimately, it just opens the floor for some conversation. Now you've got some knowledge sharing that's happening across all of the members of the team. There's not this open question around, what's he doing? And what's that team working on over there and you know, where people can start to get into each other's business or you start to have this erosion of trust because people feel like they're operating in silos. It also opens the floor to be able to have to your point, Nick, an easy conversation right? Hey, Jimmy, I noticed that you mentioned you're still working on that thing that you've been working on for the last four days. And you've cited the same obstacle each time. What can we do to help alleviate that for you? Because it seems like you're just kind of, you know, spinning your wheels right now. So let's help help you get unstuck. That's what good leaders should be able to do. It's it's not just about getting in and managing the situation or managing your people or their work. It's really helping to set that direction and guidance, so that people can be effective, and also providing them with the independence so that they can act on their own authority in those situations. Communication is key. And I've always found it to a degree laughable that there's this phrase out there called courageous conversations because to me, if, if the conversations at a point where it really has to be that courageous, then it sounds like people aren't talking to each other.

Nick Lozano  21:58
Exactly. Building up,

Brian Comerford  22:00
probably should have been aired out a lot sooner.

Nick Lozano  22:04
Yeah. Could i'd rephrase that? I wouldn't say courageous because like you said that that means we've gotten to a point where we're, I'm really getting sweaty, having this conversation, right? It should be uncomfortable conversations are a key, right? We have this conversations where it might not be comfortable for me as a leader or comfortable for the other person, as you know, team member, but we need to have these conversations to have more than communications, that dialogue, right. We need to be understanding each other. Back and forth. That kind of goes back to what john Abbott said, right? He's like, the biggest illusion of communications is that people assume that it's happening, right? So if you stop back and think of yourself as a leader, maybe you think you're communicating, but maybe you're just talking that somebody you're not actually having a dialogue back and forth. So it's a good perspective for you to sit back and stop and think well, you know, I'm the leader of this team. Ultimately, the performance of Everybody here is my responsibility. And I have to figure out why I'm failing. Right? And maybe it's that one thing when you step back and look at you like, it goes back to the time everything was a key question to statement ratio Qasr. He's making more statements than he is asking questions and letting the team members work through the ideas themselves, to come to the conclusion to give them some type of, you know, feedback to let them let them work through ideas themselves, because in the end, if we micromanage everybody, like I said, we'll all just be standing around on social media wasting our time, right?

Brian Comerford  23:37
Well and tied into the theme of remote workforce. Here's another perfect example of that. If you've got some kind of I am client, you know, whether it's Skype teams, slag, you know, you name it. There tends to be some form of telepresence built into that right and so you have a clear understanding just at a glance Somebody's available. Are they in a meeting? Do they have Do Not Disturb set? And you know, if you get to a point where you're not actually working physically in the same place together, and you notice that Jimmy Joe's telepresence shows him always available, and yet he never responds to any of the items that you're sending

me, Joe.

Nick Lozano  24:25
He's got two first names I can't trust.

Brian Comerford  24:29
It's not just you

Nick Lozano  24:31
know, comedy bad. I can't remember who it was. But Sorry, I digress.

Brian Comerford  24:36
Well, it gets you to a place where you can have some of those conversations, right? Yeah. And notice that you always show that you're available and yet the last three times that I end you, you don't reply and notice that things go into missed conversations in the inbox and you know, you're not responding in a timely fashion. Here's what I need from you. I am going to announce that Set the expectation that we are going to communicate on a frequent basis. And if you're not at your console, and you just happen to set your default to show that you're always available, that's not really the case. Then let's do

Nick Lozano  25:17
280 minutes before it goes to 180 minutes to do whatever I want. Brian,

Brian Comerford  25:25
let's make sure that we've got some alternate methods of communication established, whether that's, you know, an IM client that's also on your mobile device. Is it easier for me to text you versus using I am or email, you know, and and then you open the door to have those conversations and that's where the leadership component comes into me.

Nick Lozano  25:45
Sure, and I'm going to bring up something to you and it might sound completely crazy. But when we think about remote work, one of the biggest entities I can think of that has figured this out is actually the US fed Government, right? We always think of the US federal government this big monolithic thing. But somehow for the like the last 15 years, they figure out how to have a workforce that can be mostly remote. Right? people show up in the office or they take telework days. And if this big, monolithic, organizational entity can figure this out, there's no reason why smaller organizations can't figure it out. You know, some of these things I've seen, they set clear defined rules about what they expect their people to like, okay, you know, you know, maybe your FDA or something like that, and you work at a headquarters and the headquarters is eastern standard time based and they go Okay, well, from 11am to 3pm, Eastern Standard, no matter which time zone you're in, you must be available. It doesn't matter where you are. So we're setting they're setting clear, defined roles and expectations that they expect of people and these are the type of things we always look at, you know, Any governments that like all the red tape, but if you go back to things like what they're doing, and these are good ideas, right? Like, okay, do whatever you want between the times here but Eastern Standard Time, whether you're in Greenwich Meridian time or your pacific time, or maybe you're in Australia 11 to three eastern time you need to be on and available and on your computer, because that's when we do business over here. And I think some of its like you said, it's just, you know, us as leaders with kimete communicating down or chain of command, letting them know what's important, why they need to be on at those times. And and the things we expect, like you said, it's it's us having a dialogue with clear expectations, and it's nothing different than if they're here in front of us or if they're working thousands of miles away.

Brian Comerford  27:47
Absolutely. And, you know, brings up a good point as well, for most of my corporate life as a manager. I have had at least part if not all of the teams that report to me reporting from a variety of locations that are not the same physical location that I'm in, I've worked for companies that are, you know, geographically dispersed. And there have been times where I've been isolated from my reporting structure where, you know, the person that I report to, he and I don't work in the same city, or she and I, and I've also been in the situation where I've had an entire team, you know, half a dozen people who not one of them are actually physically located in the same location. And this was before the days of really discussions around remote work policy and yet here you are, you know, effectively having that type of dynamic in place. So To me all the same principles still apply, right? It's back to having effective communication, having those expectations established and holding people accountable. Now, there's also the component of offshoring. Right now for 25 years or more, I've interacted with teams that not only are not based physically in the same office that I'm in, but they're not even in the same part of the world that I'm working in, and often are working in cycles where I could not be monitoring them to micromanage them if I wanted to, because I'm in bed when they're getting the things done, that are expected of them. But your your comment about the way that the federal government operates, you know, kind of triggered that thought for me because, you know, there have had to be some overlap, windows of time that you establish, so that you make sure okay, these are the time We're going to be able to have meetings where people are actually still at work. And in some cases, you know, I've back to my, you know, working overseas example. I've had to have some of those meetings where it's nine o'clock at night in the place that I'm at. But that just happens to be the time that I can have a standing meeting with another team that's halfway around the world.

Nick Lozano  30:25
And things like that are awesome because that was communicated to you right? So you knew what to expect right away. It's not thrown upon you randomly. When you've been in remote working for two months, you know the time to have that conversation was right before you went remote work. Not nighttime like these are what's so funny as we talk about these but these are things that leaders should just be doing in general whether whether you're remote working or not. And sometimes I have seen in the past that leaders of teams who are remote whose teams are remote, sometimes have better real relationships with their employees. And then the team leaders who have employees that work right there for them. Because it's more I guess it's more Top of Mind of them to do these things than it is to somebody when you know they're a leader in their team to located in the exact same location. Well, I'm part of

Brian Comerford  31:17
that could be because communication, right success is so dependent on clear communication. And the bottom line is your workforce wants to be successful in whatever it is that they're doing. And they want to be recognized for their success. So that's another piece that as a leader, you want to ensure that you are reinforcing the actions and the activities that that you want, right as a relationship. You need to reward that you need to call it out. You need to reinforce it with positive comments with in a positive recognition in front of other peers on the team, so that it helps create that social Rising effect where it just makes it into your culture. So it's no longer just, man, I thought I was doing this great job and I don't even get an Attaboy. And that makes it even more difficult when you're physically, you know, not within arm's reach. So I think to your point, Nick, I think that's that's part of you know, where that could come from where you have got those better relationships, because so much is really dependent on the communication being clear.

Nick Lozano  32:27
Yeah, now go back he can and they'll say it's not gonna be his dialogue, right? It has to be more than a one way talking that somebody right needs to be actual conversation back and forth. With feedback both directions.

Brian Comerford  32:43
Incidentally, every one of these episodes that you have done, and I've done with the exception of the one with Tom O'Neill, you and I have not physically been in the same location. And yet we're still looking at each other just as if we're sitting across the desk from one another. You know, we're in different time zones. So we're we're effectively accomplishing some time travel at the same time that we're having a

Nick Lozano  33:09
feature right now, Brian, you're two hours in the feature right now. But you're also at the same time. Same time right now to. That's right.

Brian Comerford  33:20
That's right. All right, Nick, I'm going to ask you the question that you always ask. So I don't know. Are there books that you're aware? Yes, yes.

So

Nick Lozano  33:34
the founders of 37 signals wasn't a Jason frilled and cheese. Yeah, you're gonna Jason freed and

Brian Comerford  33:45
David Heinemeier hands come

Nick Lozano  33:49
from Tanzania. They wrote a book called The remote, which is just all about how they um, you know, built base camp. So you know, initially if you've read rewards Today they didn't start base camp it was that was their own project management tool they built for themselves and they were doing what was it like marketing consulting or something like that they're building websites and stuff. And you know, when they started base camp and doing all this they they crew this company with 100% completely a remote workforce and they just go through it's a really short read like rework he can probably read it and you know, an afternoon but discuss their all their thoughts and ideas about remote teams and a lot of it just kind of reinforces exactly everything we said. And and, you know, it's a good read, because how big is Basecamp? I mean, they have to have a few million users a decent amount of revenue, and somehow they make it completely remote teamwork. Like I said, it's great read. And then the other book I would recommend, because we talked a lot about leadership concepts is another one by my favorites, Jocko Willington Leif babban called the dichotomy of leadership. Right. We talked about how to We balance you know, giving our team's freedom and then also checking into them. That's a, you know, a crazy balance. How do you give them enough freedom, but then you're also coming in verifying them. That that's another great book, I would recommend that people just read in general, even if you have remote workers or not. Brian,

Brian Comerford  35:21
I do not have any books, but I find it curious that we just pimped the founders of base camp two weeks.

Nick Lozano  35:30
Because we just gonna publish it, you can

Brian Comerford  35:34
just edit that out. So, you know, one thing that I was going to say about base camp that that I think is also intriguing is the idea that you create an application that's designed to be limited in purpose. Right. And, and so from, you know, a development perspective. I think it's interesting that 37 signals built something based on the premise that, hey, we want people to outgrow this, right? We created this for the purpose of how can we make this remote interaction as effective as possible. But as a product, we're really not going to grow it beyond this thing that it is, you know, we're not going to continue to load it with features and updates, and you know, all of the things that you would normally expect from a SAS application because what you see is what you get, and this is really what enabled this remote interaction between us attractive so. So I think that's, that's always something that I've admired about their approach and kind of having that discipline. So, you know, I don't have any books that I would necessarily call out, you know, there's just doing a quick Google search, you know, it looks like a couple of the, the top results that come up or Long Distance leader and work together anywhere so you know, intriguing to, to explore. But again from for me whether you're working in the same office or you're geographically dispersed the principles of leadership behind how you interact and lead teams, they're the same. So you could pick up any of the aforementioned leadership books that we've discussed in the past. And I think any of them would be applicable in terms of how can you be effective with this kind of policy?

Nick Lozano  37:37
Very well said and I think with that, um, we can we can wrap this episode,

Brian Comerford  37:42
but yeah.

Nick Lozano  37:43
Alright. Thanks, Brian.

Brian Comerford  37:45
Thank you, Nick.