In this episode Brian Comerford and Nick Lozano discuss the dreaded "M" word, Millennials. Listen as we explore how to lead multi-generational teams and the mindset you need as leader.
12:04 Multi generations
22:44 Being humble
27:28 Doing hard things together
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Nick Lozano 0:13
Alright, how you doing, Brian?
Brian Comerford 0:16
I'm game for surprises. And today was one of them. I kind of surprised me with our topic. I thought we were going one direction you pulled the rug out from under me and we went to a decidedly different direction. And next thing I know, we're talking about millennials and what what does all that mean? How do we define it? You know, what's that mean for the workforce? How do you lead with intergenerational teams? So it was fun. It took us a lot of directions that I hadn't originally anticipated when I thought we're gonna be talking about a completely different topic.
Nick Lozano 0:51
And it's like to keep you on your toes. See now I was zigging when you should have been saying no, and I think we
Brian Comerford 2:00
And really getting to some definitions and really bringing some things to the forefront, I think that hopefully defy some of the conventional perception about what it is and what it means.
Nick Lozano 2:13
Well, it's it's great conversation. I had even heard the phrase, I don't know, maybe a year or two ago, a second wave millennials. So, yeah, it's just the topic that keeps on giving.
Brian Comerford 2:27
All right, onward. Whoa, millennial chitchat.
Alright. Thanks for joining us for another edition of lead.ex E. I'm Brian comer forward and Denver, Colorado.
Nick Lozano 2:38
And I'm Nick Lozano in Washington, DC.
Brian Comerford 2:41
And today is an episode all about when it we're in free form mode. And it's just me and Nick. And we're going to take the conversation where it may lead
Nick Lozano 2:50
us. Yeah, and it you know, we we haven't done one of these in a while and I always feel like when we kind of, you know, just have a conversation. We always kind of have some, you know, great, great conversation when we come off the air with guests. Or like before with guests, I figured out like, Hey, why don't we just kind of do do one of these and see where it goes. And I kind of want to ask you a question, Ryan. And it's a topic that people talk about all the time. And it's millennials right? Older. Yeah. eyes rolled so your eyes are on the back of your head. And for some reason, there is this stigma with millennials, right? Or people think that millennials are a lazy, right? Be they always go home? See, they want to know why they're doing everything. You know, I just want to see what your thoughts are on millennials. And when you hear that conversation brought up in conversation,
Brian Comerford 3:47
first impression for me when I hear the term millennials flung out there is there's there's something else going on. You know, I don't know if it's personal fear. If it's You know, part of what I think is just one of those social tendencies to always want to distinguish between the other. Right. And, and it's, it's part of how, you know, we do social ranking. I mean, that's, that that probably goes back to days when we lived in caves and sat around fires and, you know, had a had a pecking order, you know, based on our tribal associations. But, to me the fixation on millennials as if there is this new differentiating force that suddenly has to be reckoned with. It's something that on the one hand, I think we can thank marketing firms for, because they've raised you know, they've elevated this demographic, to the level of awareness for the general public that, you know, hey, here's here's a new group with a lot of buying power, right there out there, you know, has influencers and making decisions and you know, driving behaviors across a lot of dimensions. But yeah, there tends to be this perception. And I, you know, maybe it goes back to when marketing started targeting millennials, that these are kids in college or kids just out of college. And that perceptions been dragging along now for over a decade. When I think if you actually look at the timeline for where the generational slicing occurs, we kind of missed the mark on you know, who do we think are college kids here? So, so to me, it tends to be more of an indicator of there's some inherent fear right? And and it's a way to distinguish there's this other group out there. That's the other. I'll kind of start there because you know, there's a lot of ways we can go with this but I'm kind of interested throw the question right back at you and hear your definition
Nick Lozano 6:14
now and how you do it, Brian. I think for me, sometimes I'm in that millennial generation sometimes I'm not. I guess it just depends on who who does the math and where I am. But But you know, all those things that we hear about millennials and I think when when people talk about millennials are really talking about recent college graduates, right? In somehow a recent college graduate just got pain termed as a millennial, right, and it just kind of carried on like you said for the past 1010 years or so. But some, some of the things we hear about them, right. It's like they want to know why they're doing something. They want to be behind a cause. Right? But doesn't everybody want that right? They want to be valued at work, be doing something that they want You know, be doing something that they want to do. That's, that hasn't changed over any generation of time. I feel like people have always, you know, wanted to feel like they're doing something of worth, right. And like I said, I think it's just really, you know, people just kind of pigeonholing people to try and put them in generational shift classes, I would think, right. And I there's this great comic called XKCD. And, you know, they had this whole thing on millennials and you know, it's like one guy talking to the other and he's like, you know, when millennials and he's like, Well, wait, he's like, most millennials can answer you because, you know, they're off taking their their children to college now. He's like, so maybe you're not, maybe they're not the ones who feel the change. Maybe it's you.
Brian Comerford 7:49
All right, perfect.
Nick Lozano 7:51
But, you know, when we talk about those things, I think you know, everything that you if you were to take every saying that people say about millennials and to strip the land off of it, and just talk about people in general. Those are things that people want as a whole. Is that what I've noticed, not just millennials? Well, I
Brian Comerford 8:09
think there's, I think everything that you said is sound. And, you know, I think there's a couple different delineation with it. One is millennials, they're the ones that are forcing this change that the rest of us want to be, you know, steeped in inertia to resist. No one ever comes out and says that, right? It's like not, you know, the problem is really my stodgy generation is changed reverse. That's not a phrase that you're rolling off the tongue. folks would rather say, you know, there's this, you know, new wave, you know, that's sort of being foisted upon us, because millennials have these preferences and, you know, there's all this entitlement that comes with it and you know, they want to work flex hours and yada yada yada all these things that I think to your point It's really, it's, it's sort of, you know, I guess we could blame Apple more than anything, you know, being a leading corporate force for, you know, sort of setting some of those, you know, prerogatives for Workforce or maybe it's more Google, right. I want to make sure that I've got mine, you know, vegetarian cuisine and the word cafeteria right after my massage. But, but those are things you know, you know, my father is of a generation where, you know, he was really squarely in a, you know, a work style where one person could support an entire family off of a single, you know, workers salary. And those things really started to change in level off sometime in the 1970s 1980s. And part of it became, you know, because we really had a mixed gender workforce in this country, especially where, you know, companies realized? Well, we don't have to give as many perks. And, you know, unions are not as much of a force to be reckoned with any longer in terms of helping to create standards for, you know, what the working class demands. So, you know, millennials, I think, have just been able to be targeted as this demographic where, you know, everyone wants this thing that's sort of focused around what makes you feel like you're getting, you know, the most out of your engagement from a job that, you know, that, I mean, ultimately, all of us should really be knocking on the doors of our bosses. Some of these things, if we're not getting it from our corporate culture already, and we have seen some of these imperatives really starting to shift the way that a lot of companies like to advertise themselves and really try to infuse some of those values into their culture. But, you know, I get positioned squarely in Gen X. And I can say, you know, for for my generation, there was a lot of that, you know, initial, you know, we get to wear jeans on Fridays, you know, and things, you know, things that were sort of, like, you know, some some early indicators of the same sort of thing, but, you know, certainly flex hours, remote work. I mean, a lot of this, I think, just coincided with the rise of technology. Some people work in industries and company types that were not impacted by that until much later. And suddenly, the outcry is, oh, it's all associated with this one generation, whereas I think a lot of it's really just, it, you know, it's kind of like that fifth wave, right? There's, are all of these things sort of coalesce At the same time that are causing a massive cultural shift.
Nick Lozano 12:04
Yeah, and I think it like you said it's the Internet has made it easier for people collectively to find other people like themselves, right? It's not that, you know, Generation X or baby boomer generation, or why or anything like that didn't want, you know, have flex days and all this stuff, they just couldn't have their voice heard as easily across some type of spectrum, right? You know, before when you were stuck to probably your small city or your small town or or a big city, even like New York and you know, you're stuck in your boroughs, right? You didn't know what the rest of the city was thinking. But, so let's take this back to a technology perspective and hiring and finding talent. And me know, as us as technology leaders, we're always looking for young, young talent, right? Where's the young talent? And then we always kind of seem to forget About the older generation who might be 5560, who's looking for a job might be a network systems engineer. And sometimes when people are looking at resumes like that they have a tendency to look negatively on them. Where I don't see age as dimension factor. I see that as somebody who has a lot of experience that they can bring to the table with a completely different perspective than somebody who is a millennial. What do you have thoughts on that? I mean, because I know on the technology sector, we we tend to try to hire young bringing in young talent, but what about that older talent, you know, the more experienced talent get so but we'll say it that way.
Brian Comerford 13:44
Or about us old codgers. So I would say that to the the key players on my current team, you know, they are all older than me by somewhere between 10 and 15 years. And, you know, I know you and I have also Talk to both together as well as with one of our prior guests on the show Peter Lynch about, you know, having those mentorship relationships, you know, both up and down the demographic chain, as well as the experience chain. And, you know, I think that there is a lot of perspective that comes with having, you know, a more seasoned person on your team. Now, that can be a hindrance if you've got someone who has been out of the workforce for 15 years, particularly in technology, and now they're just trying to get back in that perspective, maybe so stale, that it's harmful, because they're, they're just so many things that have changed. But if you've got someone who's who's maintained some consistency within the technology industry, and you know, they're just looking to Have a fresh start, you know, for whatever reason, because of where they're at currently in their career. I think there's a lot of value to bring in folks who are of an older age demographic.
Nick Lozano 15:14
So, Brian, how do you handle leading a multi generational team where you might have talent that is, you know, recently out of college or maybe a high school graduate nowadays with some technology certificates and people able to get, you know, six figure six figure jobs with just some certificates to all the way having a senior executive VP of me know, technology or operations or something who might be in their late 60s.
Brian Comerford 15:46
You know, it's interesting that in my experience, I have worked with a lot of different types of people and it kind of doesn't matter. Where are you fall and the age spectrum of the generation spectrum. I think the key challenge tends to be the same, which is getting people to listen effectively. Not not necessarily Listen to me, but listen to each other, have have conversations where they're, you know, they have an open mind. in technology, we know that there's a lot of different approaches to be able to solve the same type of issue. Some of them are based on preferences, some of them are based on prior experience doesn't mean that any one solution is necessarily better than any of the others. There are a variety of ways that you can skin a cat as they say. But, you know, I think, to some degree, sometimes working with older generation folks, is very analogous to working with younger generation folks in that they both have sort of, you know, comparable, closed mindedness Being able to listen to fresh ideas. I think on the one end of the spectrum, you know, if you're older, you feel like you have an understanding of what's tried and true. And you're often suspicious of the latest and greatest. And sometimes that's for good reason. You know, how many times have we applied the latest update for something that's supposed to create a fix for something else that's been nagging us for a while, only to realize that we've added three brand new problems to the mix because of all the other stuff that wasn't properly tested, apparently with the latest update. But then on the other side, you know, you've got a younger generation who tends to have a pretty cavalier attitude that, Hey, man, I'm trained up and all the latest and greatest, you know, I know all of these methods and approaches that you know, they're new school and new schools, always better than old school. I find that balance, you know, that I like to call teachable, old school. is often a good place to be. You know, I've I've worked with some folks who are of an older generation who they will ask as many questions as possible and sponge up as much information from folks who are dialed into what are the newest techniques? What's the latest syntax, you know? What are all of these different approaches and, you know, new software applications, I mean, all these things that we can do. They want to know, they want to be effective, and they're not afraid, you know, to interact with folks just because, you know, someone on the team is 20 or 30 years younger than them. So, so I think it you know, to me, it always tends to go back to mindset. And, you know, that's, that's true of the organization as much as it is for your technology team. It's my two cents.
Nick Lozano 19:00
Yeah, I like what you said right there. And I'll take a quote from Jordan Peterson who can be a pretty polarizing people, I get polarizing figure these these days. But one of his things is like he says, assume that the person across from me and knows something that you don't know. And that goes back to the mindset, right to assume that the person you're talking to probably know, something you don't know, the younger generation might be more hip and up on, you know, the newest language and the older generation has been through it, right? deployed things, watch stuff blow up, live through it today, you know, might we might want to fail cautiously here, right. Instead of just failing fast to fail fast.
Brian Comerford 19:42
Yeah, and, you know, to that point, Nick, I think sometimes, maybe a more dangerous constraint that I've seen is once people are emboldened with a title, and you know, typically that means some kind of supervisory title. It's almost like closes the door on their willingness to ever be considered wrong. And so, you know, I've actually had probably more problems with Team interactions because somebody, you know, paints themselves into a corner, trying to pretend that they know something they don't rather than just, you know, admitting and full disclosure. Oh, really, you know, I didn't, I didn't realize that's the way that that was designed to work. Or, you know, I didn't think that we could fix it, you know, in the way that you just described, but you know, if that's something that we can do, you know, I'm willing to give it a try. So again, it's, you know, it's that openness of mindset to me. And then the flip side of that, I think is, you know, having an inquisitive approach. And, you know, one of our earlier guests, Tommy read, you know, in his organizational design practice he talked about, you know, when he's in meetings, he tends to scribble on a piece of paper just as a reminder for himself. QR? No sorry, QSR. Right? And asked him what that meant. And he said, It's question to statement ratio. Right? How many times Am I leading with a question versus I'm leading with the statement? And so it's, again, to me that that's part of that inquisitive mindset where if you're coming into a meeting, and you're saying, Well, hey, what about if we did this? Or you know, how we thought about trying this? Or maybe this isn't the technology problem that we're trying to solve at all? What if we looked at these other things related to process or, you know, what if we just shook up the way that this team was structured? You know, those are the things that can lead you to some solution engineering, that oftentimes, you know, end up being a much better sustainable, long term fit, versus being obstinate and coming in and, you know, demanding that this is the way that it's going to be and this is the way that the idol framework dictates how it should, you know, things where all of those, you know, approaches can be beneficial in certain circumstances. But if you're just going to use it to shut down any kind of dialogue, and, you know, stop anyone from asking questions, ultimately, that starts to erode the entire culture, right? And it permeates into everything where it's like, we just don't ask questions around here. You know, it's, there's only a couple of folks here who can call the shots and we just have to do it that way. I know that there's a better way. You know, I've played around with this other thing over here, but you know, no one's listening to me. So we're just gonna have to deal with this other way.
Nick Lozano 22:44
Yeah, I really like that. I think it goes back to being a leader being humble, right. And knowing that once you've reached that leadership role, you're more separated from the day to day task and from a technology perspective, you're more separated from the New technologies have come out and that that's why, you know, you have the director of operations and have it and, you know, your your lead systems engineer, you have those experts to lean on to help you make those decisions, right. At least for me, I'm I'm more, you know, respectful of somebody, I guess, not respectful. But I guess, said, I really appreciate when somebody tells me they don't know the answer to something, right. I mean, how often do we hear that, you know, where leaders sit in the room, he just has to have an answer for it. I really enjoy when someone's like, well, I don't know, what do you think? Because that's what you're here for. I don't know anything about, you know, Microsoft Teams, what do you think about that, you know, VP of something you don't have time to, you know, sit with the weeds of the details of what's going on with a specific technology, but that's why you have your staff around you. And you got to kind of foster them into that to let them help you, you know, right, make decisions. That's what your team's there for what, that's what you have a team for, not to make every decision known to man and micromanage them.
Brian Comerford 24:09
Amen to that? Well, and, you know, trust, I guess is is that other factor that, you know, as we're talking about, in particular, those intergenerational relationships. If you have the trust that, you know, someone comes into your organization, and maybe they are just out of school, maybe they did just get their certification, you know, maybe maybe they do have a brand new, shiny degree, that they're anxious to put on the wall of their first corporate cube. But they don't have a lot of experience to back up, you know, some of the things that they know, doesn't diminish the fact that they actually might have some valuable knowledge worth mining. And, you know, in order to establish trust between existing team members, you know who they may already be sort of dug in, you know, to your team, they and they can read each other. Right. I know you and I have talked about this and recent up path training with Tuchman's model, right? You've got the classic, forming, storming, Norman performing well, the those cycles, it's not like it just happens once and you only go through one of those phases one time, and then you're done. And, you know, once once we make it through normal man we're on to performing and that's it. It's know, you know, every time you've got a change within your team, you know, that dynamic can be altered. And, and so you have to anticipate that there's, you know, a little bit of that getting to know you phase again, but part of how you can help mitigate some of the storming is to establish trust early, and part of that can be Hey, let's bring in this new team member. Let's sit down and have a discussion. Around, you know, some of these things that are on this project. A lot of times if you've got something in your project backlog that looks like scraps, right? And that can often be something that where you can quickly find a couple of good candidates for someone who's new to the team, and you deliberately pair them up with someone else who's more senior, or you know, who has complementary skill set. So that sort of forces both of them into a mode of working, you know, with someone where each of them may be getting pulled outside of their element a little bit. Or maybe it's something that you know, a project or neither of them necessarily have the specific expertise for what that is. It's going to force them into a mode where they really have to dialogue together. They really have to collaborate to create a solution. Can it backfire on you? Yeah, absolutely. But you know, the number of times that you end up being pleasantly surprised, because you see a couple of people go off and you know, the strengths of one and you You know, you suspect the strengths of the other based on you know, your recruiting process. And then all of a sudden you go see the magic, you know, starting to, to work on whatever the issue is. And then the pride that comes back the relationship that's good gets formed as a basis of that trust that's created, because you got to see two people, you know, pairing up together and having that sort of synergistic flow working together.
Nick Lozano 27:28
Now, I really liked that kind of brings me back to saying he and I had I don't know if we said on the podcast, or maybe we're speaking enough affair some some other time, but it was like, do hard things and do them together right. Now doing very hard things as a team has a tendency to bring your team closer together. They will at least it has for me and my career, even in technology and outside of technology, just doing things that are extremely difficult and hard with other people just kind of has a tendency to bond them together.
Brian Comerford 28:00
Hard doesn't have to be, you know, building a rocket to go to the moon hard can just be, you know, organizing something that looks different than anything that you've ever tried before.
Nick Lozano 28:10
Brian Comerford 28:12
I mean, this podcast could even be a perfect example for us, you know, right. It's, you know, well, how hard could there be? Well, we're gonna find out. There's a lot of stuffs that, you know, maybe weren't really top of mind when we began.
Nick Lozano 28:30
Exactly. And, you know, I feel like, you know, doing the hard things and don't be afraid of failure either, you know, a good thing, right? You know, allowing yourself the opportunity to fail kind of gives you the opportunity to let go of certain things to try not to hold on to try to not fail, right. So if we think of like, we'll take our podcasts example again. And I'm like, Okay, well, you know, we don't really want to fail. So let's, let's see if we can market it to people first ahead of time, for We have anything let's build a list of people. Let's, you know, let's go out and you know, figure out what the best platform is, let's figure out the best way to record this. And before we know it, we're just analyzing things without actually doing anything. This is just taking that leap and say, Hey, you know what, you know, I know Step one is to at least have a conversation and record it some way somehow. Right? We can go into step two, well, we have to edit it somehow. Right? And that goes back to our, you know, doing our things doing together, but also don't be afraid of failure. And the best time to start anything is is right here and right now, right.
Brian Comerford 29:37
Nick Lozano 29:39
But I guess that's just me just rambling. Right?
Brian Comerford 29:47
I think there's some golden nuggets in there despite the interruptions.
Nick Lozano 29:51
Yeah, no, it's it's fine. And then I just kind of want to bring up a quote, you know, when we were talking earlier, you know, a younger just generations and older generations and how people perceive each other, you know, without kind of some type of self awareness. Are you familiar with who Les Brown is? No Les Paul? No, not Les Paul. So Les Brown was, you know, this radio DJ and Miami's got a really great story. And, you know, he had learning to say, you know, he had like some disabilities. And basically, you know, he wanted to do stuff and one of his teachers was very influential on him. And he always comes up with this quote, and he's like, you know, what this teacher said to him, he said, it was Don't let someone else's opinion of you. Here, it's like, don't let someone else's opinion of you become your reality.
Brian Comerford 30:51
Right. I think that's a worthwhile quote.
Nick Lozano 30:53
Yeah. So so I would recommend you you go back and look them up in some of his speeches and he he goes into talk Being a young guy, right that he was young and hungry, right? So you went to this radio station. And he's like, hey, I'd like to be a job as a broadcaster, you know, director says, Well, you know, didn't experience being on the road. No, I don't. He's like, Well, do you have any jobs? Well, no, I don't. So he's like, then he came back tomorrow, right? He came back again. He's like, Hey, I'm here for a job. So he just goes through this whole thing of like, with his mindset, you know, and how he doesn't let someone else's opinion of them become his reality.
Brian Comerford 31:36
Yeah, you know, and I think that's a great mindset to help forge new opportunities. You know, I think dialed into this idea of, you know, what's in it for the millennials? Well, really, if you think about, you know, tying all back to where we originally started with this. It's what's in it for all of us, right? I mean, why shouldn't we all share in the same entitlements that we tend to cast towards the millennials. Why from a customer experience? Shouldn't all of our preferences be based around making things more efficient, more portable, you know, less data intensive, you know, all of the things that, again, seem to be these driving forces were initially, we feel some form of resistance, because that's kind of our own cultural storming going on right now. It's a Tuchman's model for, you know, really what's happening with these these larger cultural impacts. You know, because really, when you start to dissect a lot of the sort of outlines of complaints or, you know, criticisms or you know, abrasions that you here that are sort of framed around that millennial demographic You really start to pick it apart. And to me it's like, Yeah, but, I mean, why would Why would we resist wanting to have that? Why can't we make a path to make all that possible? Because it sounds like we're all beneficiaries that that. Let's see, I'd like to work less, make more money, have more benefits, you know, make things easier. You know, you just keep going down the list and that's like, all right, so what are we resisting for? Because it's easier to hang on to the devil, you know?
Nick Lozano 33:39
Yeah, I know. It's just I like I said, anytime someone says something about millennials, and there and they hear me say something like, well, millennials, like I was like, Okay, well, let's just strike millennial off of that. And let's just say the statement without it. You know, because, more than enough you like other treat you Users your employee base, you know, your team members, you're never talking about one single generation are you mean, you're always leading teams across multiple generations or you have a user base? It's multi generational. And I think was Brian Cain when when we had a conversation with him? You know, before when I was out in Denver, and he was talking about that the research actually shows that older generations are better using computers than the younger generation is which which surprised me, but two point, you know, older generations, we had a harder time using computers, right? He used to have to know how to use a command line to even do anything on a computer and have a mouse so if you think about some of the they've kind of grown with technology, and then I see people like my son who's four and he he tried he thinks everything's a touchscreen. So TV like why doesn't this work? But I digress. I forget where I was going with that. But you know what I would say anytime somebody says something about millennial just chop that off of that phrase that you're going to say and see if it stands true just to people in general.
Brian Comerford 35:14
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's a wise approach. Let me ask you this. Are there any books? Nick, I know you love you know, your book list. So many books that, that stand out that are ones that you feel like kind of tackle this topic?
Nick Lozano 35:32
I think for me, um, I don't know if I have any books, per Sam, millennials. You know, Harvard, Harvard Business Review kind of does a lot of good stuff about leading multi generational teams. I would say just look up for things like that. Anytime we see a book that says about millennials, I just I'm just totally shut off about it. What about you, Brian?
Brian Comerford 35:58
Oh, you know, that's, that's a Good question. You know, I think I think a book like rework is just sort of a good book that talks a lot about jettisoning some of these conventional perceptions that we have, about how we do work, why we do work, know, what should we really be doing about, you know, how we're managing the business that we're in. It's not really a book that targets specifically around anything, generally, generationally, either. But I think in terms of being a reflection of a lot of what we've talked about, you know, what is sort of, you know, cast as, Oh, that's a millennial kind of thing. I think rework is a book that, you know, it's a quick and easy read, and it kind of delves into a lot of those areas where, you know, pretty quickly you can have a better understanding of, Hey, you know, why do I These things need to be this complex, we can actually strip this down to some of the basics and still have something that's really effective and something that people love, you know, what a revolutionary concept is that so I think that's a good one to, to kind of throw in the mix.
Nick Lozano 37:18
Now, that's, that's a very good one and I'm going to bring up Dale Carnegie's, again, how to how to win friends and influence people. Right and I know I've mentioned that before on this podcast but it's a great thing like you go back and you you read what was written in 1920 and you're like, Oh my God, that's that that applies to today.
Brian Comerford 37:39
I was gonna say you're reaching back several generations beyond mine My friend to get the
Nick Lozano 37:44
Yeah, no, but I mean, just to me, it's it's like and it just popped to my brain when you said rework, but it's like, you know, as a same kind of concepts, right? works like hey, when you're talking to somebody show a genuine interest, don't fake being interesting. Just actually generally be interested in them. right you know and and ask some questions and it's just, you know it. The book is just great. It stood the test of time. I mean, it's still like OR pie on was ink that post the number one entrepreneurial books that entrepreneurs must read or something like that I can't remember. It's one of this is like anchor Entrepreneur magazine or something like that post something like that. And that's always on the list.
Brian Comerford 38:26
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for good reason. Alright, well, this was an exciting topic. I'm glad you popped it on me today. Thanks for joining us for another edition of the
Nick Lozano 38:39